Comments on Aaronovitch Watch: decent antecedents

Yes to the third sentence, no to the second - I th...

2008-06-23T07:20:00.000Z

Yes to the third sentence, no to the second - I think you're imagining the sinister overtones, quite honestly.

Well that's the trouble with the Griffin piece, is...

2008-06-23T06:42:00.000Z

Well that's the trouble with the Griffin piece, isn't it? It is written so as to give the impression of something sinister made in Washington and financed from there. But all it actually says is that when people find out they think similarly to other people, then seek one another out, exchange emails, go to conferences and write in the same journals.

CC - I think you're reading more into Tom's piece ...

2008-06-22T22:37:00.000Z

CC - I think you're reading more into Tom's piece than is actually there. Has Democratiya roped in former Cold War liberals? Yes - a whole slew of them, particularly people associated with SDUSA. Did Democratiya help make the EM possible? Yes. Do some Cold War liberals have a dodgy history as regards the whole state funding thing? Yes. Is an initiative like the EM the kind of thing the dodgier

Sorry that should be 'many foreigners'From page 12...

2008-06-22T15:42:00.000Z

Sorry that should be 'many foreigners'

From page 127 of the 2001 edition. Well worth a read as is the Strategic Deception book.

Roy Godson has something to say in his book Dirty ...

2008-06-22T15:38:00.000Z

Roy Godson has something to say in his book Dirty Tricks or Trump Cards that may be relevant here:

"There is no need to control foreign assets - whether politicians or journalists, ethnic leaders or activists - as bureaucracies rooted in the Anglo-American tradition, favouring precision and efficiency, are tempted to do. May foreigners willing to collaborate on specific missions

who funds who and when.Well exactly. Who could loo...

2008-06-22T10:30:00.000Z

who funds who and when.

Well exactly. Who could look at the EM website or Decentiya for that matter and think that anyone was directing serious funds in their direction?

The idea that someone in Washington hatched a plot...

2008-06-22T09:47:00.000Z

The idea that someone in Washington hatched a plot that ended in Geras and co launching the Euston Manifesto is absurd.

It's not about plotting - or about people saying things they don't personally believe. It's about networking - who knows who, who funds who and when.

And I am not sure how you can be so confident in y...

2008-06-22T08:30:00.000Z

And I am not sure how you can be so confident in your ability to tell what is innocent, and what is organized.

The idea that someone in Washington hatched a plot that ended in Geras and co launching the Euston Manifesto is absurd. Geras manifestly says what he says because he sincerely believes it. And the various initiatives launched by ANTMJ are obviously devoid of serious

"The ability to carry off a good conspiracy is rel...

2008-06-22T08:06:00.000Z

"The ability to carry off a good conspiracy is relatively rare, whereas good old stupidity is horribly ubiquitous."

That might be true, and I'm not saying it isn't; but I can't see how you could ever be sure. A good conspiracy, carried off successfully, will not be recognized as such, by definition.

It is, however, a fact that money and effort are pumped into the production of

Admit it, you bastards, you only called this blog ...

2008-06-21T23:51:00.000Z

Admit it, you bastards, you only called this blog "Aaronovitch Watch" so you could be first in the phone book. If you'd been given the chance, it'd all have been about a bloke called "Aaaaronovitch".

I'm onto you, you pack of dodgers. Don't think I'm not looking.

Simon, A good point which reminds me of a passage ...

2008-06-21T16:14:00.000Z

Simon,

A good point which reminds me of a passage I recently came across by Abram Shulsky of the Office of Special Plans, in his chapter of Roy Godson's 2002 book Strategic Denial and Deception: The Twenty-First Century Challenge:

"Soviet front groups might have been more effective, but Stalinist paranoia made impossible the operational autonomy needed to succeed. To the extent

I don't think it makes sense to talk about the his...

2008-06-21T14:50:00.000Z

I don't think it makes sense to talk about the history of the EM without reference to weblogs, or at least to the internet. A lot of the people involved in the drawing up of the EM were not 'intellectuals', but people with weblogs whom Geras and the HP crowd approved of. Indeed, part of the reason for its failure was that it never developed a status beyond that of an ephemeral internet meme,

I'd always advise looking for stupidity rather tha...

2008-06-21T01:34:00.000Z

I'd always advise looking for stupidity rather than conspiracy.

The ability to carry off a good conspiracy is relatively rare, wheras good old stupidity is horribly ubiquitous.

The Democratiya/SDUSA connection was new and inter...

2008-06-20T18:30:00.000Z

The Democratiya/SDUSA connection was new and interesting, I thought - and suggestive, given the chronology. There's no smoking memo (which presumably would be addressed to NTM rather than Geras), but if there were you wouldn't need the rest of the story. It's parapolitics - you don't (often) get proof.

I disagree with the good captain. The whole Euston...

2008-06-20T11:22:00.000Z

I disagree with the good captain.

The whole Eustonite movement has always been obsessed with American foreign policy and its concerns, is looking at things from an American perspective and barely interested in domestic UK politics, other than a sort of generalised panic about evil Muslim terrorists. You only have to read the manifesto or follow their blogs to see where their

But ditto my earlier comment for the EM.

2008-06-20T08:08:00.000Z

But ditto my earlier comment for the EM.

Well, it's the history and antecedents of the Eust...

2008-06-20T07:48:00.000Z

Well, it's the history and antecedents of the Euston Manifesto rather than of Decency as such, no?

Well the piece is right about the Dissent connecti...

2008-06-20T06:52:00.000Z

Well the piece is right about the Dissent connection but that's about it. Obviously Geras and co were heavily influenced by Michael Walzer but the idea that the whole Decency thing is a US import is not very credible, especially when there are perfectly good and more prosaic explanations on offer.